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	<title>Comments on: FIREFIGHTERS MUM ON CHIEF&#8217;S PAST, FUTURE</title>
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	<link>http://www.redbankgreen.com/2009/11/firefighters-mum-on-chiefs-past-future.html</link>
	<description>Serving greater Red Bank, NJ - a town square for an unsquare town</description>
	<pubDate>Thu, 18 Mar 2010 03:38:58 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: whatawhacker</title>
		<link>http://www.redbankgreen.com/2009/11/firefighters-mum-on-chiefs-past-future.html/comment-page-2#comment-46666</link>
		<dc:creator>whatawhacker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Nov 2009 03:52:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.redbankgreen.com/?p=14155#comment-46666</guid>
		<description>Why wouldn't regionalization work for daily calls? We don't have storms every day. I would think that it is rare that any 2 towns between Red Bank, Fair Haven, Little Silver, Shrewsbury, and Rumson would have calls at the same time. Wouldn't these 5 towns be equally served by just 2 crews?

Let's say each town has 2 ambuances, at $120,000 each. That would be $1,200,000.00 If these towns are covered by 2 ambulances, plus 1 for a back-up that would come out to $360,000.00 for a savings of $840,000.00 or $160,000.00 per town, just in vehicle costs.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Why wouldn&#8217;t regionalization work for daily calls? We don&#8217;t have storms every day. I would think that it is rare that any 2 towns between Red Bank, Fair Haven, Little Silver, Shrewsbury, and Rumson would have calls at the same time. Wouldn&#8217;t these 5 towns be equally served by just 2 crews?</p>
<p>Let&#8217;s say each town has 2 ambuances, at $120,000 each. That would be $1,200,000.00 If these towns are covered by 2 ambulances, plus 1 for a back-up that would come out to $360,000.00 for a savings of $840,000.00 or $160,000.00 per town, just in vehicle costs.</p>
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		<title>By: Why not volunteer?</title>
		<link>http://www.redbankgreen.com/2009/11/firefighters-mum-on-chiefs-past-future.html/comment-page-2#comment-46652</link>
		<dc:creator>Why not volunteer?</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Nov 2009 08:41:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.redbankgreen.com/?p=14155#comment-46652</guid>
		<description>Regionalization for daily calls does not really work the way you think it does. During a storm, Little Silver can have 3 or 4 calls, Fair Haven can have their own 3 or 4 calls, and so fore. Where Regionalization would help is the administrative end in the technology, of sharing the equipment for the annual FIT test, or bulk purchase of gear, or fuel. 

As far as an ALS call with a paramedic, I think the cost actually is much higher, depending on the call. As far as a "regional fire/ems service" having medic's, It can't happen at this point in time. As of right now, The Paramedics have to be hospital based. There cannot be a municipality based paramedic system in the state due to state law. MONOC is I believe owned by numerous hospitals or they have a contract with them, not exactly sure on that one.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Regionalization for daily calls does not really work the way you think it does. During a storm, Little Silver can have 3 or 4 calls, Fair Haven can have their own 3 or 4 calls, and so fore. Where Regionalization would help is the administrative end in the technology, of sharing the equipment for the annual FIT test, or bulk purchase of gear, or fuel. </p>
<p>As far as an ALS call with a paramedic, I think the cost actually is much higher, depending on the call. As far as a &#8220;regional fire/ems service&#8221; having medic&#8217;s, It can&#8217;t happen at this point in time. As of right now, The Paramedics have to be hospital based. There cannot be a municipality based paramedic system in the state due to state law. MONOC is I believe owned by numerous hospitals or they have a contract with them, not exactly sure on that one.</p>
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		<title>By: whatawhacker</title>
		<link>http://www.redbankgreen.com/2009/11/firefighters-mum-on-chiefs-past-future.html/comment-page-2#comment-46650</link>
		<dc:creator>whatawhacker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Nov 2009 02:20:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.redbankgreen.com/?p=14155#comment-46650</guid>
		<description>I find it hard to believe that one paramedic call is $3-$5,000. But even if it is, wouldn't insurance take care of the bill? Toms River's PD takes car of hte EMT ambulance. I believe they charge the person's insurance and I think they end up with a surplus on the money end of things. One would surmise that this surplus could be used to cover the salary costs.

Your comment about the amount of runs and "don't get me started on the fire estimates" leads me to b elieve that these towns have more fire calls than EMS calls. That seems hard to believe, especially seeing the amount of ambulances going down Broad St. on the way to the hospital.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I find it hard to believe that one paramedic call is $3-$5,000. But even if it is, wouldn&#8217;t insurance take care of the bill? Toms River&#8217;s PD takes car of hte EMT ambulance. I believe they charge the person&#8217;s insurance and I think they end up with a surplus on the money end of things. One would surmise that this surplus could be used to cover the salary costs.</p>
<p>Your comment about the amount of runs and &#8220;don&#8217;t get me started on the fire estimates&#8221; leads me to b elieve that these towns have more fire calls than EMS calls. That seems hard to believe, especially seeing the amount of ambulances going down Broad St. on the way to the hospital.</p>
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		<title>By: Dan</title>
		<link>http://www.redbankgreen.com/2009/11/firefighters-mum-on-chiefs-past-future.html/comment-page-2#comment-46569</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Nov 2009 16:52:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.redbankgreen.com/?p=14155#comment-46569</guid>
		<description>That was me doing the cost estimates with 5 firefighters, not Taxes (posters' names appear below their posts).  I said I didn't know how many firefighters were necessary, and that I thought 5 seemed light.

Whackersunite estimated 15 as a low-ball estimate, which puts us at around $3.5 million in personnel costs.  I still think we'd need more, but in any case, selling firehouses isn't going to bring us enough money to cover payroll for more than a year at that rate.

Who pays for training and physicals now for firefighters?

LordJohn,
It looks like several towns with professional firefighters regionalized.  And now they're leaving firehouses unstaffed to save money.  http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/politics/2009/07/06/meserve.budget.firefighters.cnn 

I would love to see firefighters in our towns get compensated, but I just don't see how we can pay for it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That was me doing the cost estimates with 5 firefighters, not Taxes (posters&#8217; names appear below their posts).  I said I didn&#8217;t know how many firefighters were necessary, and that I thought 5 seemed light.</p>
<p>Whackersunite estimated 15 as a low-ball estimate, which puts us at around $3.5 million in personnel costs.  I still think we&#8217;d need more, but in any case, selling firehouses isn&#8217;t going to bring us enough money to cover payroll for more than a year at that rate.</p>
<p>Who pays for training and physicals now for firefighters?</p>
<p>LordJohn,<br />
It looks like several towns with professional firefighters regionalized.  And now they&#8217;re leaving firehouses unstaffed to save money.  <a href="http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/politics/2009/07/06/meserve.budget.firefighters.cnn" rel="nofollow">http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/politics/2009/07/06/meserve.budget.firefighters.cnn</a> </p>
<p>I would love to see firefighters in our towns get compensated, but I just don&#8217;t see how we can pay for it.</p>
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		<title>By: whackersunite</title>
		<link>http://www.redbankgreen.com/2009/11/firefighters-mum-on-chiefs-past-future.html/comment-page-2#comment-46550</link>
		<dc:creator>whackersunite</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Nov 2009 05:06:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.redbankgreen.com/?p=14155#comment-46550</guid>
		<description>Taxes- you can have your opinion but you are a FOOL and have NO IDEA what you are talking about!

So lets get this correct, you are suggesting we fire DUAL certified/licensed personel as paramedic/firemen to handle 5 jurisdictions. Please, argue this with someone who has as low of a competency as you.... Do you know what the "average" ALS (means paramedic level service, im sure you wouldnt know that) bill costs!?!? About $3-5000. FOR ONE PATIENT. ONE CALL. Are you suggesting tax paying residents private insurance companies cover this bill? Do you even know the amount of uninsured in these 5 towns?? That would be all of your precious savings (which i doubt there would be any) going to eat the costs of those bills....

And 5 firemen to handle a fire!? Are you really kidding me?! Thats like saying there only needs to be one person to run the US- no congress or cabniet or anything else- just the president. So low balling it- you have to have atleast 2 "medical" whether they be medics or emts, a RIT team which is 6 dedicated guys who cannot do anything else except standby for firefigther rescue, an officer to run command, and id say atleast 6 guys to have 3 active hose lines- 2 to a line. So Ive low balled numbers for you and were at 15. Real cost effective huh? The reason AP gets away with it is because they can call other VOLUNTEER towns for mutual aid manpower. We wouldnt have that ability since you are stripping all the surrounding towns!! And who is paying for all their yearly, mandated training and physical requirements....

Do you know the call volume these towns have!? Youd be shocked and amazed... Red Bank alone can have 5 EMS calls a day and Ill be kind and say 1 in FH, 1 in Rumson, 2 in Shrewsbury, 1 in LS. So we know have 10 EMS calls. Dont even get me started on fire estimates.... 

I have just gotten started. Stop acting such a fool and go write somewhere where the people reading don't speak english... This way you can get away which such lies.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Taxes- you can have your opinion but you are a FOOL and have NO IDEA what you are talking about!</p>
<p>So lets get this correct, you are suggesting we fire DUAL certified/licensed personel as paramedic/firemen to handle 5 jurisdictions. Please, argue this with someone who has as low of a competency as you&#8230;. Do you know what the &#8220;average&#8221; ALS (means paramedic level service, im sure you wouldnt know that) bill costs!?!? About $3-5000. FOR ONE PATIENT. ONE CALL. Are you suggesting tax paying residents private insurance companies cover this bill? Do you even know the amount of uninsured in these 5 towns?? That would be all of your precious savings (which i doubt there would be any) going to eat the costs of those bills&#8230;.</p>
<p>And 5 firemen to handle a fire!? Are you really kidding me?! Thats like saying there only needs to be one person to run the US- no congress or cabniet or anything else- just the president. So low balling it- you have to have atleast 2 &#8220;medical&#8221; whether they be medics or emts, a RIT team which is 6 dedicated guys who cannot do anything else except standby for firefigther rescue, an officer to run command, and id say atleast 6 guys to have 3 active hose lines- 2 to a line. So Ive low balled numbers for you and were at 15. Real cost effective huh? The reason AP gets away with it is because they can call other VOLUNTEER towns for mutual aid manpower. We wouldnt have that ability since you are stripping all the surrounding towns!! And who is paying for all their yearly, mandated training and physical requirements&#8230;.</p>
<p>Do you know the call volume these towns have!? Youd be shocked and amazed&#8230; Red Bank alone can have 5 EMS calls a day and Ill be kind and say 1 in FH, 1 in Rumson, 2 in Shrewsbury, 1 in LS. So we know have 10 EMS calls. Dont even get me started on fire estimates&#8230;. </p>
<p>I have just gotten started. Stop acting such a fool and go write somewhere where the people reading don&#8217;t speak english&#8230; This way you can get away which such lies.</p>
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		<title>By: chunk</title>
		<link>http://www.redbankgreen.com/2009/11/firefighters-mum-on-chiefs-past-future.html/comment-page-2#comment-46527</link>
		<dc:creator>chunk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Nov 2009 21:45:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.redbankgreen.com/?p=14155#comment-46527</guid>
		<description>I don't think you understand how many resources would need to go into a regional paid fire department.  During a storm with power outages, each jurisdiction may run multiple calls.  How would your "proposed" 5 firemen on duty handle 10 calls in multiple towns?  

Just to give you a little insight, there are regulations set forth by the National Fire Protection Agency that specify how many firefighters are to respond to an emergency on a fire apparatus.

Ok, now you 5 firefighters on engines, ladders, and possibly ambulances to cover 5 towns.  In other words, 1 firefighter per town. You should do some research before you come here posting information you know little about</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t think you understand how many resources would need to go into a regional paid fire department.  During a storm with power outages, each jurisdiction may run multiple calls.  How would your &#8220;proposed&#8221; 5 firemen on duty handle 10 calls in multiple towns?  </p>
<p>Just to give you a little insight, there are regulations set forth by the National Fire Protection Agency that specify how many firefighters are to respond to an emergency on a fire apparatus.</p>
<p>Ok, now you 5 firefighters on engines, ladders, and possibly ambulances to cover 5 towns.  In other words, 1 firefighter per town. You should do some research before you come here posting information you know little about</p>
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		<title>By: RB'er</title>
		<link>http://www.redbankgreen.com/2009/11/firefighters-mum-on-chiefs-past-future.html/comment-page-2#comment-46523</link>
		<dc:creator>RB'er</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Nov 2009 21:16:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.redbankgreen.com/?p=14155#comment-46523</guid>
		<description>firefighter, you calling someone an idiot is like the pot calling the kettle black...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>firefighter, you calling someone an idiot is like the pot calling the kettle black&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: LordJohnWarfen</title>
		<link>http://www.redbankgreen.com/2009/11/firefighters-mum-on-chiefs-past-future.html/comment-page-2#comment-46515</link>
		<dc:creator>LordJohnWarfen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Nov 2009 20:19:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.redbankgreen.com/?p=14155#comment-46515</guid>
		<description>Dan, North Bergen, Weehawken and a few other Hudson County departments did this about 7 years ago.  Not sure how it worked out.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dan, North Bergen, Weehawken and a few other Hudson County departments did this about 7 years ago.  Not sure how it worked out.</p>
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		<title>By: Dan</title>
		<link>http://www.redbankgreen.com/2009/11/firefighters-mum-on-chiefs-past-future.html/comment-page-2#comment-46514</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Nov 2009 20:07:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.redbankgreen.com/?p=14155#comment-46514</guid>
		<description>I wasn't comparing the tax base of Asbury Park to the Two River area.  I was comparing the size and population to see how many firefighters we might need.  I couldn't find any other professional firefighters nearby.  Does anyone know of any?

I would bet there is some cost savings to be had by centralizing fire departments, but combining firehouses does not necessarily mean hiring professionals.  

Your estimate of $4 million for the sale of firehouses does not cover the likely personnel costs for one year.  But if it did cover the cost of pros for 4 years, then we'd see a tax jump in year 5.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wasn&#8217;t comparing the tax base of Asbury Park to the Two River area.  I was comparing the size and population to see how many firefighters we might need.  I couldn&#8217;t find any other professional firefighters nearby.  Does anyone know of any?</p>
<p>I would bet there is some cost savings to be had by centralizing fire departments, but combining firehouses does not necessarily mean hiring professionals.  </p>
<p>Your estimate of $4 million for the sale of firehouses does not cover the likely personnel costs for one year.  But if it did cover the cost of pros for 4 years, then we&#8217;d see a tax jump in year 5.</p>
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		<title>By: Taxes</title>
		<link>http://www.redbankgreen.com/2009/11/firefighters-mum-on-chiefs-past-future.html/comment-page-2#comment-46511</link>
		<dc:creator>Taxes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Nov 2009 19:45:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.redbankgreen.com/?p=14155#comment-46511</guid>
		<description>Comparing AP to the 5 towns I am talking about is no way a far tax base comparison nor is it a fair property value comparison. The real estate value for all of the 5 towns I am talking about has, to at the minimum, top 4 Mil. Even if you keep one of the active houses for a paid squad. If invested properly (as most funds are in municipalities) you should have enough to pay staff for 4 years even with a 3.5% pay increase yearly. Also the sold off property will bring in additional tax revenue for all of the towns to help funding of a paid squad. Don't forget the profit to be made by the sale of excess equipment. Also the savings involved in not having to up keep the equipment and the facilities. Further if the squad are also medics, then we can consolidate down use of paramedic services in these towns (Not using Mon-0C). 

The cost saving on much of this has been done for the police departments, and while most are not in favor of doing this the firm hired to do this did point to an immediate yearly savings of 1 mil. with a gain above that after the first year.

In all honesty it will probably never be done and we can argue/talk about 'if' it will save us any money as tax payers. However, we as citizens of these towns complain about property taxes yet we don't have it in us to vote these type of changes into law. If nothing changes our taxes will only go up further and we will all still be standing around looking at each other wondering when things will change.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Comparing AP to the 5 towns I am talking about is no way a far tax base comparison nor is it a fair property value comparison. The real estate value for all of the 5 towns I am talking about has, to at the minimum, top 4 Mil. Even if you keep one of the active houses for a paid squad. If invested properly (as most funds are in municipalities) you should have enough to pay staff for 4 years even with a 3.5% pay increase yearly. Also the sold off property will bring in additional tax revenue for all of the towns to help funding of a paid squad. Don&#8217;t forget the profit to be made by the sale of excess equipment. Also the savings involved in not having to up keep the equipment and the facilities. Further if the squad are also medics, then we can consolidate down use of paramedic services in these towns (Not using Mon-0C). </p>
<p>The cost saving on much of this has been done for the police departments, and while most are not in favor of doing this the firm hired to do this did point to an immediate yearly savings of 1 mil. with a gain above that after the first year.</p>
<p>In all honesty it will probably never be done and we can argue/talk about &#8216;if&#8217; it will save us any money as tax payers. However, we as citizens of these towns complain about property taxes yet we don&#8217;t have it in us to vote these type of changes into law. If nothing changes our taxes will only go up further and we will all still be standing around looking at each other wondering when things will change.</p>
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